INT: So, we--wonderful stories about three times with Barbara Streisand [performing on THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JOHNNY CARSON]. Thinking about, again, the great musicians, the great music, the great musical performers that came through both THE TONIGHT SHOW and THE MERV GRIFFIN SHOW, any other real memorable musical performances come to mind?

DC: I tell you, the Metropolitan Opera stars were my favorite: Beverly Sills… Oh there's a whole list. I loved them. They're most, you always think opera singers are gonna be st… these opera singers, every one of 'em were just cordial, friendly, would make jokes. And it was easy, no problem, you know. Problems came later with, you know, the rockers and all that, you know. But this… And these, you know, these are opera, the top people. Anyway, the list is, I really loved that. And we'd get jazz performers like Ella Fitzgerald and, I didn't make a list but a lot of them. [INT: You mentioned Buddy Rich and--] Buddy Rich. [INT: --there were Mel Tormé.] Mel Tormé. Had Mel sing quite a few songs. And then one time, you know, I think Merv would just make this stuff up once in awhile. We'd do a thing with, Buddy Rich would play drum, let's get a guitarist down there. And Ray Brown would come out of the band, and they would just swing for a while. And Mel would sing. And I would say to myself, gosh I wish I had a camera. I did, but I didn't tape it I guess. Oh I guess I did. Yeah, I did. But just to be around that...

DC: Just quick, I used to sit in the, in rehearsal on THE TONIGHT SHOW [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON] band. I would sit in the trumpet section. That was my big thrill to sit there next to Doc [Doc Severinsen] or Jack Sheldon, and how do they do that? They can take a piece of music and just bang, you know. They're so pros. [INT: Night after night.] Yeah. Sammy Davis, Jr., all time favorite, all time favorite. The nicest performer. Came in and he's the one did an interesting thing, if there's time. You can always... PA system in this house was really terrible. And he said, "I can't hear myself," 'cause the band was very close to him. He said, looked at him and he says, "There's no speakers here." So he said, "Do this. Get a rolling speaker for feedback so I can hear myself and follow me. Keep it the..." Well ever since that, I learned what to do now. If we have a singer come in, give him, but no singer had really asked for that yet. But Sammy's arrangements were really hard driven type things. So we did that, and he appeared many times on the show and, especially in Vegas. He did one of our last shows. And he had done it before on other stages I guess, “Mr. Bojangles” was like a trademark song. And actually the lighting guys, we were at Caesars Palace, really did a beautiful job following the spot. And it made my day because Merv later said, "You know, I had dinner with Mrs., last night, Mrs. Davis. She says, ‘Sammy's done that show on quite a few TV shows,’ and he said, ‘I think that's the best it was ever done.’” You know, once, you get one of those on the back and it would, just made my day because... But the lighting people were great there. They were good and... But you know we did Vegas many, many times-- [INT: That, that was--] --for many years. [INT: --that Caesars’ room, that was a great room. I enjoyed working there.] Yeah. If you got time I can talk about that briefly, if-- [INT: Please. Yes.]

INT: 'Cause I want to go back to THE MERV GRIFFIN SHOW a little bit, and so this is the perfect place, because it just, it came to mind that, when I asked you before, I know that Merv retired from THE MERV GRIFFIN SHOW before you did. I mean when he stopped you stopped. And then you went over and I think finished a few more years of WHEEL OF FORTUNE. So you, when you went back to work for Merv, after Bob Murphy called you back in you were with him then until Merv decided--[DC: 'Til the last show.]—to... But please. Go back and talk about Caesars [Caesars Palace in Las Vegas].

DC: Well I mean, here's a talk show, right? Basically. But we go to Vegas four to six times a year, a week at a time. And I see this new show called AMERICA'S GOT TALENT, that's the show we did from Vegas. All the, we had no sit down couches. We did sit down once for someone who had a problem standing. But we had all the top headliners. We had the top comedians. But it was like AMERICA'S GOT TALENT. We had acrobats. We had all the top production singers, magicians. It was a lot of work, but it was exciting and it was great. I mean we went four or five times a year. Yeah. And so when I see this big show now, I say that's what we did at Vegas. [INT: Yeah, exactly right.] I mentioned once a story that, maybe you heard about. We had Siegfried and Roy on, the famous magicians. One of their big illus--not illustrations, tricks--[INT: Illusions.]--thank you, was producing a white lion in a cage, you know. You show the cage is empty, then cover it, boom. Well, they brought that tiger out first, during rehearsal. And he's stalking in that thing. The animal is huge, huge white thing. And I thought, well, okay. They did the illusion for us. They’d throw a blanket over the thing; he's gone. Kabang, he's back. How did they do that? I mean it's... Anyway the story is, we get a big sofa and they just sit down, the two guys, with Merv and the tiger between 'em! Now that's something. They do the interview. They talk about raising this nice big tig--his head's that big. Got that? So we do the interview. We're in the truck and someone says, "We're ready for commercial." Merv says, "We'll be right back." The band, which is like 10 feet behind starts playing a big brassy number. We hear yelling over the headset. "What's going on? What's going on?" We go to commercial. The tiger is loose and walking down the runway to the audience. We had a runway doled out 'cause Merv liked to be in the audience, liked to do talk, the couch is back here on stage. And I later saw the tape, 'cause the guys were still rolling out there. And this thing is walking down and he's closer, he's looking down at these people. And the looks on their faces, it would have been scary. And finally they coax him back and bring him back. Pretty scary stuff. [INT: You were right to be, as we know the--] Yeah. There was-- [INT: --tragic accident that's happened since.] Oh yes. Think of that. Anyway, that was Siegfried and Roy. [INT: Yeah.]

INT: Any other stories about magic? 'Cause you definitely did do a lot of magic. And sometimes--[DC: I love magic, yeah] --some big illusions. Yeah. And from a television Director, it sometimes they--

DC: Johnny [Johnny Carson], yeah, Johnny-- [INT: Yeah, sure.] --was into magic-- [INT: Of course.] --and illusions. I actually got a nice letter from a young magician said, "I liked the way you shot that." And wasn't a big deal, but some Directors will cut in, and you want to stay with the illusion if you're doing illusions of course. So yeah, we had David Copperfield. And he didn't perform in Vegas, but he was, I think at TAV [Trans-American Video] maybe we did. He was very young and just really coming into it. We had a fellow named Blackstone or somebody. We, you know, we did a lot of magic.

INT: The other thing, certainly THE TONIGHT SHOW [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON] has a reputation for starting comedians' careers but-- [DC: Sure.]--certainly the, while you were there for some of those, but then certainly also on-- [DC: Bill Cosby.] --THE MERV GRIFFIN SHOW. So tell me, please.

DC: Bill Cosby had never done television, supposedly. And he had a hit record out, several hit albums. And actually, the AD [Associate Director], Quinn, Bobby [Bobby Quinn] and I, were down in the restaurant bar area between the rehearsal and the show, and we sat with Bill and his Agent at that time. Just visited, got to know each other and so forth. So we go up, and yeah, he comes out and he does one of his classic acts. Just fantastic. I forget which one it is. I have all his albums. We still play him sometimes. [INT: Could be “Noah”.] “Noah”. “Noah”. Yeah. [INT: Yeah, me too. I have a whole set of those too.] “What's an ark?” Just classic. And that was his first appearance. There were others. A lot of comedians I guess. [INT: Richard Pryor was a favorite.] Richard Pryor, Merv claims, and I believe it, was on Merv's show first. [INT: I think that's true.] Yeah. Even Dick Cavett. You know, Dick Cavett was a Writer for Johnny. And Dick's office was in the next office next to me when he was a Writer. And he wanted to start doing stand-up, so he would, we'd talk back and forth. He would go down to the Village and start to do stand-up. But anyway, when he felt he was ready, Merv couldn't wait to book him. He knew Dick by then. And Johnny felt that he would like Dick to do Merv's show or something. He wasn't in a hurry to do Dick. You might think Johnny, 'cause he was a Writer, Johnny's idea is, “I want him to see what it's like. It'll be good experience for him before he comes on the number one show.” [INT: Got it.] He really, Johnny was protecting him, 'cause he'd never seen Dick's stand-up. He did eventually. But, yes, Merv did put on Cavett first. And, but… [INT: In my short time there with Merv, the only two guest hosts I remember were Dick Cavett and Steve Allen. Steve Allen and--] And who? [INT: Steve Allen.] Oh Steve Allen, yes. [INT: Merv, for some reason, last minute, you know, had to not do a show and he was scheduled to do a show, happened a couple of times when I was there.] Oh yeah. [INT: Was Dick Cavett and, as I say, Steve Allen.] Steve Allen. Yeah. We had Steve on a couple of times. You know, we did a lot of substitute hosts. But Woody Allen was, eventually did a hosting. But he started his stand-up on our show. I had never seen his act before. And it was like, he tore the house down. It was so different. Up 'til now, we'd usually had, you know, the mountain, Borscht Belt type comedians. They were great, but they were like, ba, ba, boom, boom, boom. And very funny, you know. But this was different. This was a, he played a character or he played himself, who knows. But he would say funny things. And eventually he did a couple of those stand-ups and he was invited to host, which he did I believe. Yeah.

INT: Some, I recall also… Arthur Treacher was Merv's [Merv Griffin] sidekick for quite awhile [on THE MERV GRIFFIN SHOW]. And then Merv was without a sidekick. And if I understand it right, when I was there working, didn't Merv invite Steve Martin, who was a regular guest, to consider being a sidekick? [DC: Steve Martin?] Steve Martin. [DC: Hadn't heard that.] Yep. I know that was, again, someone you were there for the, you know, even though he had done SMOTHERS BROTHERS [THE SMOTHERS BROTHERS COMEDY HOUR] and other things, I think he was a, pretty much a regular for Merv.

DC: Well, I don't know how much time we have, but there was some interesting things with Steve on THE GRIFFIN SHOW. He was just… Oh it was the WHEEL [WHEEL OF FORTUNE], was it, no it was THE MERV GRIFFIN SHOW. We would go out and do things in Vegas. [INT: I remember this.] Is that where he dressed up as a cashier lady? [INT: Everything.] Yeah. [INT: Can you, do you remember that?] And I've never heard that expression. They said, "Well, we're gonna, just get a shot of someone playing at the slot machines, and I'll play the waitress." "Okay." I hardly knew the man. And he came in and he said, guy says, "Well you just didn't bring the right drink." "Well excuse me." That was his first, well it was funny. It, really funny. [INT: Well I remember that shoot.] It was a little short bit. [INT: Merv was going everywhere, and everywhere he went in the casino--] That's right. [INT: --there was Steve Martin--] That’s right. [INT: --dressed as either croupier--] That's right. I forgot that. [INT: --a cocktail waitress--] Thank you, yeah. [INT: --the cab driver. It was hilarious and that was very--] That's right. [INT: Merv really wanted to showcase Steve a lot there.] And we did something, I guess, before that or after that when he was a guest at TAV when… He came in one day, and he had told Merv anyway, he had like a couple of gags he had in mind, could a Cameraman and somebody come with him. And, were you there? So Kevin [Kevin McCarthy] and I, Steve says, "I want to stand in front of a restaurant or something. I've got some jokes or something." So we took him down to our hamburger place where the guy's making hamburgers, because that's perfect, 'cause he would say, "I'm standing in front of the French--" [INT: You know what it was? Here was the setup. Now I remember. You're making me remember. I'm sorry, this is probably not good, but I can't help but want to remember, 'cause you're making me remember this wonderful bit, and it was all, again, Merv giving Steve this opportunity, that he gave him a budget to go to France to make a tour of Paris.] Oh, is that the setup? [INT: And he shot it all over Hollywood. And he was trying to pass off all the Hollywood things, including the KTLA tower as the Eiffel Tower.] That's right. [INT: That was all, it was all Hollywood and, you know, and what happened to the budget you know?] Yeah, he said, "We gotta do," he wore that French thing, and so I'm thinking where can we do a tower that looks, so we put him in front of a movie theater tower. [INT: Well, it was the KTLA tower. Yeah.] And he just does everything straight faced. You know, "Here I am in front of the Champs-Elysées." And then the one was a, he went to an art gallery. So there's one of those, you know, cheap art galleries with posters, and we put him in front of that. It worked, you know. Yeah. [INT: Yeah. Great stuff.] Very clever. All right.

INT: So you joined the Directors Guild of America, before that having been as a, what was the Radio and Television Directors and then it--[DC: It was originally. Yes. Until they…] Directors, DGA was, says here, February 1st, 1961 as a Stage Manager, according to the notes here. And so which show was it that you became the Directors Guild member? Do you know which one?

DC: Well I think I was doing that wonderful kids' show, BIRTHDAY CLOWN [CHUCKO THE BIRTHDAY CLOWN]. [INT: Oh, okay.] I think that was it, because I know the AD [Associate Director] signed my-- [INT: Yeah, Jimmie Baker.] Jimmie Baker was another Stage Man--no he was more of a Producer-type, excuse me. [INT: Associate Producer. Ron Bacon?] Yeah. [INT: And Stage Manager Don Hart.] Don Hart. [INT: That's who signed your application.] Yeah. Yeah. I'd forgotten that. Yeah. [INT: Those are actually some legendary names in DGA--] Oh yeah? [INT: Yeah, DGA teams. Yeah. Had, and so you knew them just from that show or are there other--] Yeah. Well different shows, because, you know, it'd be a different Director if you did the news. Or it'd be a different Director if you... I'm talking about stage managing. [INT: Yeah. Yep.]

INT: In your, those early days, or throughout, I know you've been busy, and believe me I know when you're busy it's hard to spend time in this building or become involved. Do you have any memories of your involvement here with the Directors Guild [DGA] and...

DC: Well, several things. I remember coming to one of the annual meetings to discuss residuals, cassettes. That was heavily attended because it affected our income. And there were a lot of Actors there too that would get up and sound off. And there were a lot of opinions. Saw that one, and I came to another meeting, I forget that was about. Stopped going after so many years. Used to come to the movies and see a movie occasionally.

INT: So residuals, you talked about that in there. [DC: Yeah, that was a big deal then, you know.] Yeah. Still is. Yeah, as we get into new media and other things. [DC: They hadn't worked out the formula or anything, yeah.] Yeah. Well, I can tell you where the Directors Guild [DGA] is being very, very proactive on all the new ways for our content to be delivered and to make sure that-- [DC: Well, it started to change rapidly too, yeah. Absolutely.] Yeah, any thoughts about that? In your long career, both as a Director, a maker of content and a viewer of content, any just general reflections about the changing business of television?

DC: Well it changed so rapidly. When I left THE TONIGHT SHOW [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON], I didn't know about electronic editing. It was all new to me. We weren't doing that in, on THE TONIGHT SHOW, 'cause we didn't edit. There was no post. I came out here and started doing some work, and I had no idea about how to edit electronically. And then that's changing all the time, constantly. They're on digital now. I never worked with digital. The only thing that we saw happening was the size of the tape, from two inch to three-quarter to half. And then I think that's where they last, before they went into digital. But I know absolutely nothing about these. [INT: Fact is, you really don't have to. I mean--] No. [INT: --you can let the technicians execute your vision. And that, I think, what about that?]

INT: I mean what about pace or timing of shows? Is there something that you noticed or were you given directives about how long to stay on, even with a game show, you know, where you stay on the host or go to the wheel or go to the board or...

DC: I think, you know, I think you have to feel it. I think you have to be in tune with what these people are like, what are they doing. I would get, not in love with a certain, but I'd be maybe interesting more on this person than another person. But yeah, you, you know, I don't know how to explain that, but yeah, it becomes a personal thing sort of in a way. [INT: Merv [Merv Griffin] told a story once, and you can back this up or say where it came from, that in terms of WHEEL OF FORTUNE, that the hook for anybody who was channel surfing was to see the unfinished puzzle on the screen. And if they came to an unfinished puzzle, they couldn't turn away from it.] Absolutely true. And that was the secret of the show. If there's a puzzle on the screen and someone's walking in the room, they're playing. They're watching. That's it. That's why we leave the puzzle up as, a lot. 'Cause people, my biggest complaint, I mean I would get from people, "I don't, puzzle's not on the, up long enough." Well, the way we shot it then, we had to cut back and forth and we couldn't do that. But I always thought, just do a split screen for 30 minutes, 'cause people want to see that puzzle. Anyway, yeah, little things like that. And people would stop me and say, "That puzzle last night, what was that puzzle?" Yeah. [INT: Probably did it weeks before, yeah…puzzle, yeah.] Yeah. I've always wanted to go into a bar somewhere and know all the answers. Solve it real quick. [INT: Be funny. Win some drinks and some cash real quick that way.] Yeah.

INT: Let's see here, again, so just some general questions here. Yeah, I think you've often, you've said during this whole interview, you sort of demonstrated your passion and what excited you, but what's the most creative aspect of your work? What have you enjoyed the most about being a Director?

DC: Well especially with my brother [Johnny Carson], I enjoyed lying in wait for that close-up [on THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON]. I knew it was coming. And I must admit, when we went to TAV [Trans-American Video], I had a lot of control. My hand would come over to the TD's [Technical Director] switcher. Okay. And he didn't mind. He got ti--and I'd have my hand on that camera button. And as soon as I saw that close-up coming, it had it. And I started switching the show. The camera guys were so familiar with me, I didn't say, "Stand by one, ready one", it just showed up. And they felt it too. I trusted them to be on the right shot, most of 'em, you know. But can you believe, and this changed the way we were… when we first went on with THE TONIGHT SHOW, I still had to flip the lens on one of the cameras to get the close-up. And if I wanted a two shot I had to cut away so we could flip to a two shot. Couldn't get another Zoomar. Johnny's camera had a small Zoomar so we could creep in for that close-up. The other camera was a, I forget, wide-angle lens or something. It was really tough to… but as the show got popular things could change slightly. We got more help and... [INT: Did you have any part at all of, other than wishing you had those tools to suggest what kind of tools would make it better?] To whom? [INT: Ah, I don't know.] Oh you mean... [INT: Powers that be, even at NBC or...] Oh I know, I asked, you know, could we get a… no, that's going to WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS or something. It just wasn't available. But we did, you know, as Johnny became more popular…

DC: You know what happened, and I, it's kind of going back, but I think it's important, even though Johnny [Johnny Carson] had a contract to start [THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JOHNNY CARSON] October 1st, [1962] Merv [Merv Griffin] had made, in his week before that I was there, apparently so successful, very successful according to Merv and the write in program, and we knew, when they said, "We're going to put THE MERV GRIFFIN SHOW on in 6B at two o'clock, live." I said, "Well we're in that stage. We're on the air at 8:15 on that stage." "Oh, we'll work it out. We'll work it out." In my opinion they were covering home, covering themselves. 'Cause Johnny was not that well known. They were covering their bet. Merv got big numbers, so they were… we knew what they were doing, but it made it very difficult. And Merv's first show that afternoon was the same our opening night. So we had to, the grips had to roll out Merv's, all his equipment, all the band stuff had to be changed. Our band came in, our home base, and we did our show. [INT: You had to rehearse your show though too, right?] You bet. You bet. [INT: Wow.] And start, be ready to roll at 8:15. Anyway, that's what they did. I thought it was very unfair, and it made some of us kind of nervous, but Johnny never mentioned it to me or anybody. But I think it was well understood. And Merv finally, they finally decided to let him, to cancel that show. And that was a relief for us, 'cause now we had a little more time to do stuff and set up. [INT: Did you ever, I don't, I think I know the answer but I have to ask you, did you ever have the conversation with Merv about that, that you kind of wondered... No?] No, no. No. I mean, we know, and you know, he only took advantage, he only did what they wanted him to do, you know. And as a result, you can see how good he is. I mean he went on and… But that's Merv's business. He went and got a theater of his own, and he started a show there. And took off. But we had a lot of competitors over the years for that spot. [INT: Well you mentioned Dick Cavett before. I mean Dick Cavett was--] Oh Dick Cavett. [INT: --up against...] Joey Bishop, Jerry Lewis, there were several other names. But nobody could get the numbers. So, but we didn't feel that confidence until, oh a couple of months down the line. One of the reviewers in New York wasn't that thrilled, 'cause they still liked Paar [Jack Paar], and it was, you know, “You can't replace Paar.” Now they say you couldn't replace Johnny Carson. And then you can't... [INT: Well you can't replace Johnny Carson, so that remains a saying. There'll never be another Johnny.] That's right. Yeah.